Renting a Shell from Vespoli for Spring Season

[onlyfirstloser]

Hey Everyone,

My crew team is a junior team that raced in Nationals last year in a 8 and there are many reasons to be excited for this spring season. We expect to return to Nationals this year in the four and potentially make a run to knock Deerfield off as National Champions. Our team has unlimited untapped potential and will row a strong race, with every improving 2k's through the winter and spring.

The biggest issue we face is funds. Our team does not have a lot of money and therefore we race in a 10 year old vespoli 8 that is a hand-me-down from other teams a couple times over. We won all our races in it last year and raced in it at Nats and ended up finishing in the top half of the pool there, losing the final race by just a few seconds. Now we returned all of our rowers/coxswain and have up and coming guys who could knock off some of returning guys so we will be even faster. And I am not a fan of rationalizing and blaming our losses by a second on our shell. But I have believe there is at least a couple second difference better our shell over 2k and the empachers that Deerfield (our competition) race.

As a result, I would like to have a new shell to practice and race with from mid march till mid june but do not have the funds to purchase a shell outright.

I've found on the Vespoli website that they rent shells on a by month basis, roughly $1500 a month for a year old shell, but does not have any information besides contacting the regional rep (which I cannot do for several months due to reasons too numerous to list here) and that I need insurance to get the shell.

I was wondering if anyone has ever done this process through Vespoli, and if they have any advice or information on how to proceed. Also, am I allowed to design the shell for the team to ensure correct size (midweight) and spread (varies) and shoe size (varies.) The only semi custom thing I'd do would chose the color, no bow writing or anything that Vespoli couldn't take the shell back and then sell it after our couple months of use. How much would it cost to just rent one of the shells they already have for three months? How much would it cost to rent our custom designed shell for three months, if possible? Any and all info you have would be great!

Thanks!

[crewcrewcrew]

I'm assuming you're a rower here... correct me if I'm wrong...

The first thing is to talk to your coach. Chances are they'd love to have a newer shell as well, but there aren't many coaches out there who don't know that Vespoli rents. It may be that they have bigger reasons than you know about for not going down that road.

If, however, they're open to it, Vespoli has in my experience been very responsive and willing to work with crews, especially junior crews. They have regional reps as you noted and those guys and gals are almost universally friendly and genuinely interested in helping. Their goal, of course is to sell - not rent - but they really do try hard to help.

I don't think, but am not positive, that Vespoli will build you a brand new shell to rent. More likely is that they'd rent you something they already have built or in their demo fleet. Those reps will know what boats might be available; you can also look at their list of used boats on their website to get an idea. I wouldn't worry too much about spread and shoe size - the standard spread should be just fine and Vespoli can find the shoes you need.

Also don't forget that Sykes also rents extensively in the US; they are basically the only other manufacturer who does. Their website looks like it just changed so you (or your coach, rather) might try e-mailing and calling Tom directly.

Lastly, though some people around here will probably tell you just to pull harder, row better, and not worry about the equipment, I'm going to tell you you're right: a new boat can make a difference of a couple seconds over a 10-year old boat, easily. If you bust your a$$ you deserve to not lose to crews just because they have more funds. Find yourself a new boat.

[LateinEarlyOut]

Sorry to say hulls make a much smaller difference than people want to believe. Though if your older boat has been banged around and poorly maintained certainly a new boat is better. We seatraced for a new Vespoli V1 EL against a 10 year old Vespo Racer DM, which was a size too small and had been abused and repaired poorly. The V1 was a few seconds faster but a good part of that was probably due to it being the right size.

Modern boats do not degrade at nearly the rate that people seem to believe. So long as the boat is at weight and has not been severely damaged a new boat isn't going to make as much of a difference as you want to believe. Spend the time you worry about having a new boat on the erg, it will help much more than a new boat would any day. Good luck!

[JD]

Lateinearlyout - you are going against the grain here. And within reason (i.e. trying to compete in a pre-1998 or so shell) you are right. The longevity and rigidity of boats with uni-directional carbon are remarkable and one of the greatest innovations to the sport in it's history - not because they are faster, but because replacement and repair costs can be reduced for programs like Onlyfirstloser's and mine. As rowing grows, newer and more modest programs like these can build fleets of rugged, reliable and renewable hulls at very little or no cost to speed. The only problem is finding them, as smalls and mediums are at a premium. I believe these boats will play an increasing part in the expansion the sport on the club and hunior level, and, like innovations in other fields, it could not have been foreseen by promotors of the sport.

OFL: A 2003 is in the era of longevity and ruggedness that I speak of, especially if it's an M2 or Millennium. A refurb of your old boat can make it row like new for just a few thou. Firstboat and Vespoli recognize this. Firstboat is a spin off of Pocock, and Vespo is adding onto his shop to do more refurb work. I saw some his refurbs of mid-2000's shells at the shop and they were gorgeous- taken down to bare, faired out, repainted, recleared, new parts, the works. Firstboats work is good as well. If you are in the south, you could have it refurbed in Oak Ridge, or Shopsax.com in Philly can do it. There are others. I would check it out.

Still, there is a psychological value in having a new shell, even if it's just making sure that after all the training and sacrifice, no stone has been left unturned in the quest for speed. Refurb may be the next best thing, and unlike renting, the money spent is returned to your fleet instead of lost after a year or two.

Good luck. (PM next spring- I'd be curious what your club's decision is and how it turns out)

[tpj]

I agree with JD. If you hull is structurally sound and the boat isn't oddly heavy, it could be a great idea to refurb the boat. Also, it is amazing how much changes from a psychological standpoint when a boat is given a brand new paint job and some upgraded parts.

[LateinEarlyOut]

JD - I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Junior teams with modest resources really benefit from wealthier teams being obsessed with a new top of the line boat. Ten years later that $35k top of the line eight is now $6-$10k and still 99.5-99.999% as fast as the day it come out of the factory. This process is a lot like used cars, perception of newness overly devalues slightly used vehicles. It was interesting in the recession that some used cars actually went up in value, because they were suddenly in higher demand due to their affordablility and relative quality compared to a new car. Though I would say this analogy is unfair to used boats, I believe used cars degrade faster than modern hulls.

In any case if OFL wants a new boat and his parents can afford it go for it. With Vespoli's they require a three month minimum, so that puts a 4+ in the $4-5k range minimum.

http://www.vespoli.com/boatsfordemo

I can tell you that my team has moved away from buying new boats because the added speed to the program is so minimal compared to the other possible uses for the funds, i.e. more ergs, more reliable motors, adding sculling, etc. I have seen high school teams where the rowers are in a top of the line boats, meanwhile their coach is stalled because he has a 15 year old Mercury outboard, wouldn't the crew be faster if coach didn't spend half of practice restarting his motor?

OFL seems more worried about his individual boats success than decisions that benefit the program as a whole. I don't blame him for this, but at the end of the day that is how the boat builders get you to pay top dollar for a product that may not really be any better than what you have now.

[lt.wolf]

I am just throwing the information out there while trying to keep the site and work separate.

King and WinTech Racing is now offering rental / leasing of shells and small boat fleets.

Hit me up if you are in need.

[onlyfirstloser]

I'm assuming you're a rower here... correct me if I'm wrong...

The first thing is to talk to your coach. Chances are they'd love to have a newer shell as well, but there aren't many coaches out there who don't know that Vespoli rents. It may be that they have bigger reasons than you know about for not going down that road.

If, however, they're open to it, Vespoli has in my experience been very responsive and willing to work with crews, especially junior crews. They have regional reps as you noted and those guys and gals are almost universally friendly and genuinely interested in helping. Their goal, of course is to sell - not rent - but they really do try hard to help.

I don't think, but am not positive, that Vespoli will build you a brand new shell to rent. More likely is that they'd rent you something they already have built or in their demo fleet. Those reps will know what boats might be available; you can also look at their list of used boats on their website to get an idea. I wouldn't worry too much about spread and shoe size - the standard spread should be just fine and Vespoli can find the shoes you need.

Also don't forget that Sykes also rents extensively in the US; they are basically the only other manufacturer who does. Their website looks like it just changed so you (or your coach, rather) might try e-mailing and calling Tom directly.

Lastly, though some people around here will probably tell you just to pull harder, row better, and not worry about the equipment, I'm going to tell you you're right: a new boat can make a difference of a couple seconds over a 10-year old boat, easily. If you bust your a$$ you deserve to not lose to crews just because they have more funds. Find yourself a new boat.

Did not see your question, I am a coach

[str8four]

OFL:

I think that renting a 4+ is a perverse waste of money, especially for a new program with limited financial support. At the end of 3 months you have spent $4,000 and the program has nothing of lasting value for those funds. I think there is a big psychological boost for high schoolers in getting something new (new to them) and/or something distinct (your comments about customizing the shell). Showing up to the line in a 10 year old Vespoli doesn't add to the confidence of the crew, unless you make it part of your swagger and the crew's identity.

My advice would be to focus on the training and search high and low for a reasonably priced used shell that you can fix up (new hardware, new shoes, buff/polish, etc). And if you are going to buy a used shell, my recommendation is to buy the best one, a Pocock K4!

Although I know there is really no such thing as a "best shell", the K4 is a great design (with wing riggers) that hasn't changed much in the last 6 years or so. You can bet that a 2006 K4 with minor finish upgrades will be about 99% of a 2013 shell at 1/4th the costs. You can also bet it will be very hard to find b/c coaches tend to hold onto great shells that are fast year after year.

For results just look at the 2012 IRA finals for the three mens 4+ events (V4+,OM4+ and LM4+). 10 of the 18 shells were Pocock K4s including 7 of the 9 medals (all three golds). Sure the excellent rowers at Washington, Cal, Wisconsin and Navy had something to do with those medals ; but isn't it interesting that top programs (including 3 that are firmly entrenched in Empacher 8s) choose to row in Pocock K4s?

Truth be told I have never rowed in, or coached a boat that used, a Pocock K4 and some of my crews have gone plenty fast in Vespolis, Empachers, Kings, Wintechs, Resolutes, Dirigos, Fillipis and Sykes shells. But if I was investing in a program today, wanted something different/new for an immediate psychological boost, and something that is a solid investment for the program next year and beyond, I'd try to find a K4. if you can't find one I'd try to purchase an original Quantum/King (circa 2004). Both might cost you more than renting a new Vespoli, but both will give you plenty of shell speed for going fast this year and be an asset for the program for years to come.

[Scott @ Noble Hardware]

To me this is a perception problem. If you fix up the old boat, then it becomes good as new.

I remember, several years ago, I put new tape on a couple OLD pairs. Suddenly everyone was wanting to take them out for a row. Everyone was impressed how great these boats were. Belle of the frickin' ball, these two old boats became.

Tape.

$4 max.

From Ace Hardware.

[lt.wolf]

I feel renting boats is a solid idea under different situations . Imagine heading off to do a training trip and you would like to do some small boat training , why not rent a few small boats out to take care of that need for the short term. Maybe you rent small boats for the fall season. Maybe a club expands its numbers during the summer season and needs an eight or four to balance out the need of seats? There are so many reasons to rent/ lease bots just make sure you re doing it for a fair dollar value and what works best for your needs. It is not about the boat company, talk to several of them but find the right fit for your needs; purchase , lease , renting , long term vs. short term. No need to over complicate it . Keep it simple .

And if you want a 4 dollar roll of tape , go ahead

[Bucky]

Agreed with Wolf. Rentals allow developing clubs and crews to meet situational needs. A comparable questionable expense is when a crew will spend big on going to a particular race and the expense is justified over the next year or two because of expanded horizons and how that experience leads to excitement and growth.

[AaronDoucett]

I'd like to chime in because my program is in a very similar situation. Like it or not, my team is entirely managed by students, as all sport clubs at my school are. Our coaches only exist in an instructional capacity and are not supposed to conduct administrative functions, making the task just that more complicated..We too have a very limited budget and an aging fleet of shells, and the extensiveness and difficulty of repair work can easily keep rowers off the water because we simply don't have enough working equipment to accommodate everyone. Hell, our entry in the HOCR even had a steering cable malfunction that cost us finishing the race (as some bewildered RBC rowers probably know). We too are looking into renting and hopefully acquiring some used small boats as well. One of the biggest issues with buying outright is we don't have enough money in the annual budget for nearly any boat, and what we don't spend doesn't roll over to the next fiscal year-- Very difficult indeed.

That being said, I'm looking forward to seeing what Vespo and WinTech have to offer and hope the (evil) bureaucracy is willing to go along with what we come up with....Basically the more sense anything makes the less the university student government wants to go along with it . I appreciate these boatmakers efforts to try to accommodate crews with different financial needs. It still does pain me though when I see other clubs buying new shells by the fleet

[LateinEarlyOut]

I think all options can make sense depending on the situation, resources, and cost to the team, i.e. buying new, buying used, renting from a boat builder, renting from another program, refurbishing a currently owned hull or buying a refurbished hull.

Another option people don't talk about much, but happens is buying a new boat, using it for a season or two and then quickly reselling it, one sees this fairly often on row2k classifieds. Some use this as a strategy to limit their depreciation/repair work, whilst having a brand new hull for an exceptional or exceptionally sized crew. Others do it because they are fickle and they decide that they don't like the boat for whatever reason, it's blue, it's red, it makes a funny wake, it has purple shoes, it makes a funny sound at the finish, whatever.

In the rental market, it is great that boat builders have expanded into the higher end of the rental market. Currently they seem to be focusing mainly on the higher end i.e. 0-3 year old boats where they think the $$$ is. Wouldn't it be great if programs could rent 10-15 year old hulls that had been checked out and were reliable, though maybe not super fast, less is more sometimes!

This would be great for teaching huge novice programs where having enough seats buying new boats can be expensive and highly unpredictable, depending on who shows up the first day. High school A might rent the boat in the spring, Club B rents it in the summer, and College C rents in the fall. Obviously it would have to make sense from a $$$ perspective and boat builders might be concerned it would take away from new boat sales, but for the sport it would be a good thing. I once rented a car from a company called "Rent-a-Wreck", it was cheap, looked a bit funny, and got me exactly where I needed to go with 100% reliability. This service did not change the likelihood of me buying a shiny new Ferrari, which was, in fact, exactly 0% in the first place.

[AND]

Aaron:
Its unfortunate you don't seem to be able to work with the SGA to get a reasonable fund together to run your program. The common SGA senator last but two-three years, and your program has been around for far longer. Get in favor with some up and coming senators, gather club sports support to get them elected. Friends in high places make it rain down money. We have been lucky enough to get interest free loans from the SGA, so we can make a purchase and pay it off over time. Its something we have been able to accomplish because we have been working on it for 10 years now. We tell our presidents their job is to not only run the team, but to make it easier for the team to run.

Vespoli and others offers financing but you will pay for the privilege, Vespoli will allow 75% of the rent toward purchasing.

From my experiences as a poor club, buy used, rent from another program, and last choice and the least return is rent from manufacturer. Sell what you don't use or can't continue to maintain.