Van Dusen Traditional Wing Placement, Shoes?

[rowswithcrabs]

I just picked up a Van Dusen lightweight traditional with the wing rigger and have a few questions about rigging and shoes.
Since it seems like several members own or have owned these it seemed like a good idea to ask for your insights before wasting a lot of time messing around.
Here goes:

Shoes:
1. This boat came with some ratty old lace up Adidas shoes and I can't figure out how they are mounted. On the bottom of the foot board there are some of those large flat female inset bolt like things but not something you can turn.
There are three per shoe in a triangular formation. I'm guessing I have to tear the insoles out of the shoes to find a screw or something?

2. Is there a direct replacement for this shoe type? that will bold right in?

3. If I find a pair of shoes with the four bolt pattern, i can just get some longer screws and mount directly to the footboard (there is no shoe plate).

4. Shoe recommendations? I was looking at the New Wave shoes from Ankaa shoes (black and grey) and the red and green ones from Durham Boat Co. (also new wave) and wondered if anyone had a preference. The latter seem to have an integrated toungue (wraps over so you don't need to pull it out) which I kinda like. Or should I try to get some adidas shoes from europe. I figure a pair will last a few years so its worth spending a little extra to get something I really like. I prefer a shoe not to be bulky, even though I've got a small foot there is still very little room for shoes in this boat. Suggestions?

Rigging:
1. Trying to obtain a good catch angle I decreased the span as much as possible and shortened my inboard... that part was easy and feels good now. More an observation than a question.

2. Trying to obtain a good workthru has been more complicated:
I moved the foot stretchers forward quite a bit (I'm 5'7 168lbs) and it feels about right in relation to the pin, but when I did that the boat seems to sit heavy in the stern, even though I have the wing almost all the way to the bow (still one hole left). I also noticed that using my ActiveTime stroke meter the check factor was thru the roof, much more than what i've been used to seeing in other boats (went from 28 to 40 at a 28 spm rate). So.. do i move the wing all the way towards the bow or bring my footstretchers back a little or both? or something else? It's interesting; I'd rowed a vd trad. wing that was a heavyweight quite a bit but didn't notice how much rocker this boat has... not a bad thing, once i get it setup right and get used to it (will prob. improve my ratio) but its going to take a bit of adjusting to get the balance of the boat right.

Ideas on how this particular boat should sit (with bow higher or lower) when sitting still at the catch in order to get the best run at a moderate or higher rate?

Thank you for your time and attention. It's greatly appreciated.

[gdoyle]

Shoes:
1. This boat came with some ratty old lace up Adidas shoes and I can't figure out how they are mounted. On the bottom of the foot board there are some of those large flat female inset bolt like things but not something you can turn.
There are three per shoe in a triangular formation. I'm guessing I have to tear the insoles out of the shoes to find a screw or something?

These are pop rivets. You will need to drill them out. Use a bit just slightly bigger than the inner hole you see. Go slow. When the head breaks off, you will be able to pull out the other side.

2. Is there a direct replacement for this shoe type? that will bold right in?

You'll spend a lot of time making it just as unworkable the next time you need to replace them. Better to spend your efforts fixing it for good with a upgrade modification.

3. If I find a pair of shoes with the four bolt pattern, i can just get some longer screws and mount directly to the footboard (there is no shoe plate).

I would get the shoe plate and figure out how to mount that to the footboard. I built my own plate from a strip of aluminum edging. It was tight, but I made it work. In any case, drilling holes (eight total for the shoes) into the composite footboard isn't wise. Best to epoxy the six wounds you have, then drill two or three to work with a shoe plate, similar to what you see in most boats now.

4. Shoe recommendations? I was looking at the New Wave shoes from Ankaa shoes (black and grey) and the red and green ones from Durham Boat Co. (also new wave) and wondered if anyone had a preference. The latter seem to have an integrated toungue (wraps over so you don't need to pull it out) which I kinda like. Or should I try to get some adidas shoes from europe. I figure a pair will last a few years so its worth spending a little extra to get something I really like. I prefer a shoe not to be bulky, even though I've got a small foot there is still very little room for shoes in this boat. Suggestions?

I would get the Adidas from Alex Selvig at Elite Rowing. The domestic boat brand shoes seem to be a big large and cloglike. Not a lot of room in a Van Dusen footwell, especially on the sides.

Rigging:
1. Trying to obtain a good catch angle I decreased the span as much as possible and shortened my inboard... that part was easy and feels good now. More an observation than a question.

Hmmmm....What defines a "good" catch angle? What's a "typical" span? Why go narrower or wider? What does that do to oar rig settings? Balance?
Work vectors? Arcs?

Definitely play a lot. And often.

2. Trying to obtain a good workthru has been more complicated:
I moved the foot stretchers forward quite a bit (I'm 5'7 168lbs) and it feels about right in relation to the pin, but when I did that the boat seems to sit heavy in the stern, even though I have the wing almost all the way to the bow (still one hole left). I also noticed that using my ActiveTime stroke meter the check factor was thru the roof, much more than what i've been used to seeing in other boats (went from 28 to 40 at a 28 spm rate). So.. do i move the wing all the way towards the bow or bring my footstretchers back a little or both? or something else? It's interesting; I'd rowed a vd trad. wing that was a heavyweight quite a bit but didn't notice how much rocker this boat has... not a bad thing, once i get it setup right and get used to it (will prob. improve my ratio) but its going to take a bit of adjusting to get the balance of the boat right.

I'm rowing a midweight with the wing all the way to the bow, and I have a set of pin plates that move the pins even back further to the bow, so I can get through the pin without moving me too far into the stern. I think CE can make these for you if you don't have them.

Ideas on how this particular boat should sit (with bow higher or lower) when sitting still at the catch in order to get the best run at a moderate or higher rate?

Well....if you take the catch and the stern makes a big rooster comb, you need to fix something

As for boat run.....you are rowing a Van Dusen. Thou shalt be rewarded with substantially less burden at the catch. You're on your own at the finish....

Row high and quick!

[rowswithcrabs]

This all VERy helpful.
I feel better knowing that I wasn't missing some obvious solution to the removing the shoes and better knowing that its not unusual to want to bring the wing all the way back (or further).
"Row high and quick!" - Indeed, it's a different boat when you get around 30 almost like it's imitating a hydofoil, sortof brilliant. I may need to notch out my oars or shorten them a bit so I can row at that rate easier.
(looking at the bIo row stuff too). I'm going to have to think about this shoe thing.. strange design. Thanks again.

[1xsculler]

My shoe size is a 12 and I've used Adidas rowing shoes and Asics track spikes in my lightweight Traditionals. After carefully drilling out the large flanged pop-rivets, as gdoyle suggested, I forgo the shoe plate, for no good reason other than it saves a few ounces and I don't want to go to the trouble to make one, and simply position my shoes carefully and drill two holes for each shoe throught the footboard and attach the shoes with flat-head stainless machine screws. They're either 6mm x 1, or 5mm x .80 if I remember correctly. I don't countersink for the heads but just tighten them until the heads are flush. Actually, this depends on which material your footboard is made of, i.e. some of them are dense enough that you may want to countersink the screws. It can be tricky to get the shoes properly aligned and get the new holes in the correct places. I think I removed the insoles, positioned the shoes and marked the holes with a very short pencil from inside the shoes. The shoe plate suggested by gdoyle and which is standard in the newer Advantage does offer you more flexibility.
Things seem to work the best for me, whether in a Traditional or an Advantage (both lightweights), when the wing is about as close to the bow as it will go (6' 2", 160#) and my footstretcher is about as close to the stern as it will go in a Traditional, at least.
To get more or less, if any, through the pin you can swap the pin plates from one side to the other. You can also bend them if you want to adjust for lateral pitch. Dan Gorriaran (hookfast.com), who has about as much experience tinkering with these boats as anyone I know, and he's about your size, likes the bow to plow, or be down, a little rather than have the stern down if I understood him correctly.
I row mine at 160/87/287, or some variation of those specs. with Crokers and 156/85/275 with C2 Fat2s. I do change almost everything constantly so I'm not really sure what my current specs. really are at this moment. The fastest 69 year old lightweight on the planet frequently rows his VDAs with a 162 span and 89 inboard. He's rowed the HOCR every year but one when he was in Viet Nam and he's won it numerous times.
Have fun!

[rowswithcrabs]

thanks as always for sharing your experience 1x. if i remember right you have your crockers cut away a bit? for some reason in this boat i feeling like i want to lighten up the load, might be a better option than shortening. seems like when i try them shorter i'm prone to "oops" and gouge the water, esp. when just maneuvering around near the dock.

in any case, it's feeling a lot better moving the rigger all the way back as well as the footstrechers a notch. i also mounted some new shoes in, as suggested, drilled out the rivets of the old ones, then i put some spikes the shoes i have, with the (4 bolt pattern), waited till my feet were in the right place on the board then punched my way thru enough to leave a mark, drilled and mounted.. will prob. fill the old holes with epoxy or liq. nails in any case. nice. i'm glad i asked for advice.

another question, I had this boat (1990 lightweight) side by side with the 1993 heavyweight that i had been rowing earlier, they seemed quite a bit different (and row different, and i don't think is just how they sit in the water with me in them) the lightweight has the stroke coach propeller mounted up closer to the side and most the banana shape is a lot less pronounced on the heavyweight. when both are sitting empty on the water, the lightweight's bow and stern taper up a lot more dramatically, in fact I never noticed the banana shape until I got the lightweight. the 93 heavyweight seems to have a more linear keel. I wonder if there was a change between 90 and 93 in the overall design or if the heavyweight is a different design altogether (not just a change in scale).

sidebar: i rowed a long piece today on flat water staying around 30.. the boat felt brilliant, when i took the rate down, not as interesting... which leads me to wonder: how many vd traditional owners drive honda s2000's or Vtech's (as i do) there's an uncanny resemblance between the snug fit, intent and power curve of both (an s2k wants to stay in the range of 5k-8k rpms and has all of its power there)... probably none, but it think it's interesting.

[Nosmo]

I was shocked to find the rivets in my wifes VD Advantage when trying to replace the shoes. Rather then drill them out, we ordered new shoes from Van Dusen. They now come with bolts so they can be replaced. We also had the option of having shoes mounted parallel to each other or with the toes splayed slightly out.

We get plenty of work through the pin with the rigger slightly to bow, but both of us are 5'7" and the boat is a fly weight.