Respiratory Analysis

[sandor]

I just started playing around with ZoneX from PAIRFS - a wireless respiratory analysis device developed in Grenoble.

Conceptually, it seems great - we want to identify metabolic transitions to create training zones.
Respiratory analysis takes it another physiological step deeper than lactate which is itself a deeper physiological marker than heart rate.

This company has developed patented gas sensors to measure eqCO2 / VCO2 / tidal volume /rate
https://www.pairfs.com/en/zonex-mesure- ... tilatoires

So far it is incredibly simple to use - now we will see if/how it helps me over the next 150 hours or so of training.

[Almostflipped]

woooof, you have put a temptation in my path that will surely get me in trouble with the girlfriend. Question on it's use though. I have a super old erg, like pre-bluetooth model cause it works just fine. Can this still be used if the mask/software can't sense the power output or interact with the erg? Would it just run the gas analysis and provide the time at which threshold was hit for the user to back calculate what power they were at?

[Almostflipped]

Dumb question, reading the rest of the site that is exactly what it will do. Did you buy this or get access to it through job/trainer/etc....?

[sandor]

I bought it.
it is why i row a 25 year old 1x - i'll spring for the n=1 physiology lessons in lieu of skinny oars

They were very helpful prior to purchase - being able to test "in the field" was a big thing for me, not having to translate testing from erg to OTW is a win. They have a field mode that will then transfer the data once you are back.


importing the .fit files from C2's log book has working well.
I am on a model C retrofitted with a PM3

[sandor]

So far....

...I have been getting nearly identical VT1/VT2 results with multiple tests.

Part of my current annoyance with lactate is that i have seen quite varied results even with identical testing protocols.
Physiologically, i am in a weird spot coming out of cardiac surgery & have not been able to find a groove for training, and it has been frustrating. Mentally frustrating mostly, because i feel stronger and faster, but i think i have been set back farther aerobically than i want.

Stephen Seiler talks about blood lactate being a shadow of what is happening metabolically in the muscles, i feel a bit stuck in that shadow and i am hoping that ventilatory testing will help shed some light. He (and others) have also been talking for a while about the coming of field-applicable ventilatory monitoring.

In practical terms, i have been able to take the VT1 markers & play with duration - ie have the mask on for 90 minutes & see a live feed. See if/when ventilatory rate/expelled CO2 changes. Those sessions have also shown me how variable heart rate can be.

[Almostflipped]

Have you done a blood lactate test while also using the mask? Also you say you are seeing the variability in heart rate compared to ventilatory threshold; but how has RPE held up against respiratory testing?

[sandor]

Have you done a blood lactate test while also using the mask? Also you say you are seeing the variability in heart rate compared to ventilatory threshold; but how has RPE held up against respiratory testing?

Haven't done lactate & ventilation yet - this week i am planning to add it in.

Research has always shown a strong correlation between LT1/VT1 & LT2 /VT2, so i expect them to match up quite well. Ventilation is just more sensitive as it is measuring actual consumption/production of gasses vs measuring the by-product of energy production. So even if technology allows continuous lactate measurement, we would still be measuring the exhaust rather than the consumption of the engine.





Heart rate & RPE?

Well off. Heart rate, generally in the ballpark, but there is definitely drift in a single workout, with a flat CO2 line. And there is a drift over a week of training building up to rest days. So i am getting tired, but metabolically don't seem to be using fuel any different. I assume this is just going to work to improve my cardiac fitness (strengthen that heart muscle)

RPE - this has always been off for me.
Resting heart rate to 85% max seems like an incredibly compressed scale to me - this leads to overtraining, especially when life limits recovery.

For instance, i did basically no training in May.
Lots of activity commuting, in life, etc, but dropped all training.
Coming back to it in June, the hardest thing has been controlling intensity - i want to go 20-30% harder in my Z1 work, but (history tells me) that will work for 5-6 months & then i will hit a hard wall.

Lactate testing, for me since 2015, has emphatically identified this to me & really changed the course of my training.

[Almostflipped]

Wanted to check in since you made that lactate post. Did the ventilatory testing match up as expected against lactate testing?

[sandor]

Wanted to check in since you made that lactate post. Did the ventilatory testing match up as expected against lactate testing?

It is interesting, but in ways that are not entirely unexpected.

I have only done lactate @ 20 minutes into Z1 (ie below VT1/LT1) - no lactate on step tests.

I have been consistently seeing up to a 0.7 mmol variation in lactate at the same watts depending on how deep into the week i am (so the farther from a rest day i am, the higher the lactate is) but the ventilatory measurements are unchanged.

I pushed this a little farther & checked basal lactate prior to the workouts, and these varied just as much.

So i think the relative rise in lactate levels seems to correspond well to the ventilatory measurements (which i think would be expected) but points to a bigger chance of overshooting Z1/VT1/LT1 based on when & how you test lactate to set training targets.

MChase, if i remember correctly, came away with the conclusion that with lactate it is better to err low when setting targets - i think that is true.
If i set Z1/VT1/LT1 based on watts at a lactate level of 2.0 mmol on a well rested 20' workout, i would, currently, be pushing 2.7+ mmol for the last half of the week.

In trying to think about training zones as building different fuel delivery systems, stepping above VT1 like that would remove the mitochondria building-adaptations & the fatty acid metabolism in favor of glycolysis. So the 80 part of that 80/20 split that i think i am doing are now negated as the rise in lactate shuts off the signaling to ask for those adaptations.




As a side note too, as it has been awfully hot, i consistently see a 10 bpm spike in my heart rate when my body's cooling systems start to engage. When perspiration starts to form, it jumps 5-7 bpm & then when i start to really sweat, it jumps another 3-5 bpm. No change in RPE or watts or ventilatory measurements (this is the brilliant part of the constant monitoring) but my body's radiator kicks on high & more blood is being pumped to cool.

I'd say the average temperature when i have been starting morning workouts has been about 75 F. I am going to watch this specifically as we go into fall and winter - once we get into the 40 F temps, i can do 12 miles Z1 & never break a sweat, so it will be interesting to watch the heart rate then.

[sandor]

i had to go back & re-read old stuff - here is some of MChase’s postulating:

https://rowingillustrated.com/boards/vi ... 36#p100936

And bloomps response succinctly identifies why i do my endurance work prior to eating in the morning:

Regarding the pre-test diet, that would be an interesting thing to control. A lot of data shows that ingesting carbohydrates inhibits lipolysis by 50% for 4-6 hours after a meal and it takes 8-10 hours to return to fasting rates of lipolysis. You'd need to have your athletes well fasted to eliminate any impact of the insulin response to a meal.

the chemical signals to utilize free fatty acids & promote increased mitochondrial density are inhibited by both lactate and insulin.

[cleetus]

i had to go back & re-read old stuff - here is some of MChase’s postulating:

https://rowingillustrated.com/boards/vi ... 36#p100936

And bloomps response succinctly identifies why i do my endurance work prior to eating in the morning:

Regarding the pre-test diet, that would be an interesting thing to control. A lot of data shows that ingesting carbohydrates inhibits lipolysis by 50% for 4-6 hours after a meal and it takes 8-10 hours to return to fasting rates of lipolysis. You'd need to have your athletes well fasted to eliminate any impact of the insulin response to a meal.

the chemical signals to utilize free fatty acids & promote increased mitochondrial density are inhibited by both lactate and insulin.

This is really intriguing to me and I am game to try it, but how do you avoid bonking? Or is that the sign to stop and refuel, lipolysis be damned?

[sandor]

i had to go back & re-read old stuff - here is some of MChase’s postulating:

https://rowingillustrated.com/boards/vi ... 36#p100936

And bloomps response succinctly identifies why i do my endurance work prior to eating in the morning:

Regarding the pre-test diet, that would be an interesting thing to control. A lot of data shows that ingesting carbohydrates inhibits lipolysis by 50% for 4-6 hours after a meal and it takes 8-10 hours to return to fasting rates of lipolysis. You'd need to have your athletes well fasted to eliminate any impact of the insulin response to a meal.

the chemical signals to utilize free fatty acids & promote increased mitochondrial density are inhibited by both lactate and insulin.

This is really intriguing to me and I am game to try it, but how do you avoid bonking? Or is that the sign to stop and refuel, lipolysis be damned?

My take on "bonking" has been to avoid getting close to LT1/VT1 for endurance rows, i err quite low - lactate under 1.5, now 15 watts under VT1 with ventilatory testing. Low = more fatty acids, less glycogen. I'm not doing 4 hours of work or doing 2 a days, so i can replenish glycogen with ease in that 30 minute window post-workout & be fine for the next day.

Over a decade ago when i started doing my endurance work on an overnight fast, i had to work hard to control my desire to go harder/get to the next split/get the extra meters - getting to 18 km & feeling like you cannot take another stroke is annoying (and detrimental to long term training).

I was doing 20km a day, and based only on heart rate. This is when i could really see the limitations of heart rate - it's too many steps removed from the actual energy production systems & influenced by too many ancillary factors to be specific to physiological load. Then came lactate - brilliant on the erg with watts, kludgy to translate to the water - but allowed me to better know the range of heart rates i had to stay under. Then came the Empower oarlock & all of a sudden managing it all was a breeze. Regardless of wind, water temp, flow, i knew i was doing the appropriate amount of work (side note - it is amazing how much slower cold water is than warm!)


The other side of fasting endurance work is fueling everything else well. I dont want to be ketogenic, i just want to do my morning endurance row on 8 hours of no food.




I've been trying to think of an analogy - the best i have is a hyper car hybrid engine (which is the opposite of a Prius - think McLaren Artura, Ferrari SF90 Stradale). You run on gasoline for almost everything - your range is huge, it's got a lot of stored energy, and is fairly efficient to use. You don't want to kick in the electric engines, as its a small battery & will provide massive power, but for a limited time (Ferrari even calls this "Qualifying" mode)


Nils van der Poel's treatise on training for a 12 minute race is a seminal piece to me.
On top of everything else, he would call it quits in the middle of a workout to take 2 rest days.
Allowing your body to recover & adapt to the high end stimulus is key.
Building the mitochondrial density via fatty acid metabolism is the foundation.

During my last two seasons I regularly skated 240 laps of 30,0 weekly, alone and with lane change. I believe that I am the only skater ever to be able to do that continuously. I was not born this way, I worked for it. From May 2019 up until August 2020 I abstained from competitions on ice and instead aim my powers at developing a strong aerobic base that enabled me to, later on, perform more high intensity work than ever before. The physical ability that enabled my success was a very strong aerobic base.

https://www.howtoskate.se/_files/ugd/e1 ... cd45c5.pdf