Singles - price vs. quality

[Remomex]

Lately there has been some discussion over different boat brands and the quality of said votes. Most people agree that you can be fast in any boat, the biggest factor in choosing one should be how you feel in any given shell. Some boats might work for some people but not for others.

However, there seems to be a pretty noticeable price difference among some of the boat companies. I don't have much experience with sculling boats, since I rowed sweep in college, but now that I'm in the world of masters rowing sculling is the main thing to do. Companies like Wintech sell their top shells for almost half of what other boats sell for (i.e. empachers, hudsons, etc). So I have to think that there must exist some difference in quality/speed in these boats. Otherwise there shouldn't be such an exorbitant difference in price. Or everyone not in the top level would be rowing the cheapest boats (if there really was no speed difference).

So my question is - what is the reason that some boats are so much cheaper than others? Is there actually a noticeable difference in quality and/or speed? Maybe there isn't between a top level Fluid and Empacher, but is there one between an Empacher and Wintech? Or Vespoli?

Just wondering since I'm new to sculling boats and some of the responses on other threads discussing boats seems to suggest that pretty much all boats are equal.

[KitD]

I would think the biggest factor in determining the price is the location of the manufacturer. So (roughly speaking) North America & Europe = expensive, China = cheap. The Chinese manufacturers are catching up in quality too. Wintechs used to have a mediocre reputation, but I know a couple of owners who are very happy with their new boats.

[Remomex]

I take it from that response that Wintechs are made in China?

I've rowed a few different singles, but like I said I am neither experienced enough nor knowledgeable enough to really know if there is a true, noticeable difference. I've been rowing a Wintech lately and i like it just fine.

[KitD]

I take it from that response that Wintechs are made in China?

I've rowed a few different singles, but like I said I am neither experienced enough nor knowledgeable enough to really know if there is a true, noticeable difference. I've been rowing a Wintech lately and i like it just fine.

Wintech is now owned by a Chinese manufacturer AIUI, giving them access to a US brand and Klaus Filter design.

[boston_1x]

$$$$ = carbon, quality of parts/components, labor, shipping.

[Remomex]

So my question still remains - is there an appreciable difference in quality/performance in the cheaper vs. the more expensive boats?

And by that I mean appreciable for someone who is competitive but not rowing a sub 7:15 on flat water. So not for elites is what I mean to say.

[fisch]

Look at the Thread from Scott @ Noble Hardware about the Wintech Double.
There you can see where the Money goes:

Think of Thickness of Laminate againt thickness of Paint and Primer.
Think about the quality of the Honeycomb material.

In the long run there will be differences in the different brands.

On the other hand you can buy two wintechs or a swifts for the price of one Empacher....

[lt.wolf]

That is an older boat fisch , check out the new boats all improved in the last year or two. Stay on topic as boats as a whole

[Scott @ Noble Hardware]

The double I'm repairing is also a "C" model, so the fiberglass/kevlar is expected. I'll admit I was surprised to also find Nomex honeycomb, carbon, and some sort of structural foam. They're not shy about using different materials in that one!

I'm not convinced that price has much to do with durability. Some really inexpensive boats are very tough (Peinert, Maas). Purely based on my repair work, Kevlar is a good thing to have in the mix.

The euro boats suffer from exchange rates and probably labor rates as well. They sure are tough, though.

[caustic]

The magic 3 things for a single are light, cheap, and strong.

You can have something strong and cheap, but it ain't light.

You can have something light and strong, but it ain't cheap.

[1xsculler]

Well, a Wintech International at $5900 is light and cheap and strong as is a Peinert 25 or 26 at about $5k, I think, as is a Fluid EL at $7.5k. Anything under 30.9 # has to be considered light enough even though I like'm lighter for poor reasons.

[suahoi]

Sykes has a nice write-up regarding the pros and cons of their two elite construction options, the more expensive HC (full carbon) versus the HKCC (Kevlar outer, Carbon inner).. http://sykesna.com/Resource%20Centre/Why%20not%20HC.htm

As for your original question, I think a Wintech Medalist is as good of a hull as any other elite hull. The Medalist construction is the same as the old Quantums, which everyone loved and many of which are still being raced today. I'm sure the International hulls are perfectly good too. The finishing components on a Wintech may be a bit clunkier than a more expensive brand, but you have to save money somewhere.. And I don't think squeakier wheels or cheaper shoes are going to have any impact on speed.

So, as long as you're comparing apples to apples (top of the line hulls, not "training" hulls), I don't think price reflects quality in terms of on water performance. However, resale value is important to consider. If you buy new, when you try to sell your boat in a few years, you'll take a big hit on a Wintech or Swift. But you'll also probably take a pretty big hit on a new Empacher/Filippi/Sykes, because you had to pay such a steep price for the initial investment, covering the costs and fees of transport. Buying new, I think Hudson is clearly the best value on the market right now.

But I think you can always get more value buying used. Buy a used boat in good condition, row it for two years and take good care of it, then once you decide you need to try something new, sell it for only a couple hundred less than you paid for it, and go find a "new" used boat to try out.

[Remomex]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses.

I think what I've gathered from all the responses in this and other threads is that the bottom like for someone (like me) who strives to be competitive, albeit not at the elite level, there really isn't going to be a big difference between the $10,000 hull or the $6,000 hull. Go with the one that feels the best. Of course if I had $10,000 lying around that I didn't need I wouldn't mind buying the top of the line, but let's face it most of us rowers aren't rolling in dough.... at least I'm not!

Again thanks for the responses!

[1xsculler]

I agree with everything suahoi stated. You certainly don't need to spend $6000 to buy a competitive used boat in great condition. Since Wintech Medalists and Internationals, both excellent boats and very little different, do depreciate more than any other boat you should be able to pick-up a really nice one, nothing older than late 2005, for $3000 to $3500. Van Dusen Traditionals, in very good condition only, can be purchased for even less. Any other top elite boat in excellent condition which has suffered no significant damage would also be a good choice and should cost under $5000 if you look for one at least ten years old. Row2k classifieds is the only place I've had any success buying boats but club bulletin boards might work too.

[onlyfirstloser]

I think im the only one in this regard but I like the vespoli matrix single. Everyone says vespoli is only good for big boats but i like thier small boats as well. Don't know why they have such a bad rap