US Rowing makes NewsWeek , opinion piece

[Slim]

Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

You're not debating in good faith, so I'll step aside. There's an argument against mine, but you're not making it.

Well if you know the argument, go chat in a mirror. Its a totally compelling argument. You are the sex you are, however much you wish you were not. You never lose the advantage.

This is not about LGBTQ, or being old fashioned or bigoted, this is simply a case of being biologically correct. Its simply not an argument. Its facts verses a wish or fantasy. Its not about good faith, its about you simply educating yourself with the scientific facts.

[rowing]

Have you never heard of chromosometimes?

[crewu]

Funniest thing on the net this weekend:

"Women’s sports are not therapy for mentally ill men."

I don't see anything funny in that remark.

There's a bunch of girls out there, growing up as girls and not finding out until post puberty - typically diagnosed at 17 - that they have XY chromosones and are biologically male. They have ovaries (generally not functioning) and a womb and female genitalia. I would not classify this group as mentally ill men.

I have no idea if they possess a physical advantage in sports.

https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/mo ... e%20birth.

From the article:
"These people have an extremely high level of testosterone and other male sex hormones, but the testosterone does not affect the foetal cells that usually develop into male sexual organs because of a mutation in the androgen receptor gene. These people therefore have male chromosomes but are women socially and in external appearance. They do not have internal female sexual organs, and they form testicles that remain concealed in the abdominal cavity.”

This is a digression from the Trans MTF discussion but illustrates how complex the discussion can be.

[rowing]

Thank you for your submission.

The current issue is about athletes who go through male puberty, explicitly and scientifically, and then decide to change the ornaments on the tree.

[crewu]

Actually you introduced chromosomes to the discussion.

And these technically are biologically male (XY) athletes who have gone through puberty. Their "ornaments" as you put it are just internal and they have no idea of their sex. Take a look at these athletes who had medals taken away after submitting to sex tests at athletic events.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/az ... -olympians

I don't think it is fair (or funny) to say they are mentally ill - although some became so after learning of their sex and felt the public outcry and attempted suicide.

One of them had to submit to "the first genital inspections conducted by the Olympic committee to verify that her anatomy was “female,” defined as having a vagina, clitoris, and pubic hair, among other measures."

My point is: the argument against trans MTF athletes in women's sport is based on the physical advantages derived from going through puberty as a male. I think these advantages are undeniable. But athletes with Morris Syndrome (XY) having a vagina, clitoris and internal testes also perform statistically at higher levels than females without. And females with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome PCOS which also produces physical athletic benefits are also found at the top levels of women's sport. Where is the line drawn on fairness based on "the physical advantages...."?

So, women's sport is a really tough one to succinctly define from a fairness standpoint. For the participants, the consequences of where lines are drawn can be devastating.

[rowing]

No. I introduced chromosometimes. As in they mean something until someone decides they don't. Magically disappearing factors!

I disagree fully with the historical sanctions against truly intersex athletes. That has nothing to with the current situation being peddled. It should be addressed, but the feel circus decided to shout the loudest, so we all have to buzz around that blossom.

Stop deflecting from the sole relevant issue at hand with regard to the Newsweek article--->natural male puberty progression, followed by deliberate medical intervention, to then competing against biological females. Full stop.

That is not, and never will be, sharing any space with natural biologically intersex athletes. The intersex athletes deserve a pure read on their plight with no carnival barkers clouding the matter.

[gamestop]

Over the weekend, one of Lia Thomas' records was broken by a cis gendered female. Where are all the pearl clutchers from back when Lia was allowed to compete?

https://twitter.com/katie_barnes3/statu ... 5987528705

So much of this is just anti trans, or scared of men "changing the ornaments" to take a seat or win a race, when that statistically does not happen.

I imagine what this does do though is further disenfranchise trans people, a group already statistically more prone to mental health challenges.

[rowing]

Over the weekend, one of Lia Thomas' records was broken by a cis gendered female. Where are all the pearl clutchers from back when Lia was allowed to compete?

https://twitter.com/katie_barnes3/statu ... 5987528705

So much of this is just anti trans, or scared of men "changing the ornaments" to take a seat or win a race, when that statistically does not happen.

I imagine what this does do though is further disenfranchise trans people, a group already statistically more prone to mental health challenges.

Competition should be open, subject to the categories that can be defined, as determined by the population for whom the events exist. Female athletes should be the gatekeeper to their own events. Period.

Add all the events you want. The more the merrier.

[rowingpun]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... veEl-mmEaI
Did somebody say chromosomes?

[Remomex]

The variation in chromosomes has been known for decades, it's not anything new.

Something that I think gets lost in these conversations where one side tries to paint the other one as SJWs and the other as bigots is that competing at the Olympics isn't a right, it's a privilege. Billions of people don't get to compete at the Olympics for many reasons. Millions of athletes who train day after day don't get to compete because........ genetics. Forget about chromosomes, genetics already determines whether you can be a successful athlete in many other ways. Every single characteristic from height and weight to VO2max and muscle fiber composition are genetically determined and before you even start day 1 of practice of a given sport are already determining your future.

If men want to become women that is all well and good and they have every right to do so. But that doesn't extend them a right to then compete as women. There are many things that disqualify athletes from competition - doping, drugs (weed and Sha'Carri Richardson anyone?), etc. I don't see why having rules pertaining to trans athletes should be any different. Want to smoke weed and go to the Olympics? Tough, you have to make a choice. Want to change gender from MTF and compete at the Olympics as a female (or any other level)? Tough, you have to make a choice.

If people want a free for all, then eliminate female competition altogether and just have open competitions. See how that goes down with women.

[rowing]

Choice vs. Chance

Well framed!

[gamestop]

Competition should be open, subject to the categories that can be defined, as determined by the population for whom the events exist. Female athletes should be the gatekeeper to their own events. Period.

Add all the events you want. The more the merrier.

So, said another way, determining who the event exists for (competition categories) can only be done by who the event exists for? That doesn't add up.

I'm with you I think generally, but until more categories/events exist, this doesn't mean opportunities are suddenly going to be trampled. Further exclusion, denying someone's identity, that feels like history repeating itself.

There are many things that disqualify athletes from competition - doping, drugs (weed and Sha'Carri Richardson anyone?), etc. I don't see why having rules pertaining to trans athletes should be any different.

Sha'Carri Richardson made a choice. Trans community typically don't view themselves as having chose to be trans, just like people typically don't choose their sexuality, their race, etc.

[Remomex]

Sha'Carri Richardson made a choice. Trans community typically don't view themselves as having chose to be trans, just like people typically don't choose their sexuality, their race, etc.

Not something I want to devote much energy to, but while being trans may not be a choice, having surgery to address it is most definitely is. So I find your argument to be a straw man.

[rowingpun]

Not something I want to devote much energy to, but while being trans may not be a choice, having surgery to address it is most definitely is. So I find your argument to be a straw man.

While having a broken leg may not be a choice, having surgery to fix it most definitely is.