USRowing Summer championships

[rowing]

I’d agree with you if I hadn’t seen so many finals only and lightly subscribed events at nationals.

When was the last time nationals were also designated as the trials?

The original problem was that the fast scullers aiming for trials too often skipped nationals. Not this year.

Arguably, this SHOULD be a faster nationals than in past years. And anyone making the finals has no business hopping in the schlub events at the Charles.

[fullmetal]

Agreed.

[RICox]

WhyTF would anyone making the finals of a trials event care about the "club" events at the Charles? Big boy pants in the summer, diapers in the fall????

Because some of the events are the only thing anyone over the age of 23 can enter now? Over 23 and want to scull at nationals? Trials. It’s pretty shitty to have to go into races thinking “gee, hope I don’t make finals”. As it stands right now, 6 of the events would be final only if they even run. So any crews entering those events would be automatically elevated.

I’ve got two guys that have been rowing a pair during the pandemic and want to race it, now on the off chance that they happen to slide into the final it could blow up all of our fall plans. There’s only 14 entries, I doubt you have to be world class to make it into that final.

We’re a club in every sense of the word, this used to be *club* nationals, we row club events at the Charles. Just doesn’t make sense to me, and would not be a problem if not for the combination of club nationals and trials.

[rowing]

WhyTF would anyone making the finals of a trials event care about the "club" events at the Charles? Big boy pants in the summer, diapers in the fall????

Because some of the events are the only thing anyone over the age of 23 can enter now? Over 23 and want to scull at nationals? Trials. It’s pretty shitty to have to go into races thinking “gee, hope I don’t make finals”. As it stands right now, 6 of the events would be final only if they even run. So any crews entering those events would be automatically elevated.

I’ve got two guys that have been rowing a pair during the pandemic and want to race it, now on the off chance that they happen to slide into the final it could blow up all of our fall plans. There’s only 14 entries, I doubt you have to be world class to make it into that final.

We’re a club in every sense of the word, this used to be *club* nationals, we row club events at the Charles. Just doesn’t make sense to me, and would not be a problem if not for the combination of club nationals and trials.

So it sounds like your problem is HOCR. Their "club" rule is outdated now. They should change it to X% off the winning time.

Still, if your guys make the final and do well.....they don't belong in the schlub events at HOCR.

Remember when "moving up" a class was a source of pride in rowing?

Just pop your cherry and keep moving already.

[rowing]

it could blow up all of our fall plans.

Oh Heavens!

[lt.wolf]

It’s a tough call , you want athletes to get as much racing experience as possible and you want a true National Championship where top rowers attend .

It was fun to spend a summer or two mired in racing intermediate, senior and elite categories. Then in one race I went Elite and did not look back.

[Mandolorian]

Having trials during nationals happened years ago during my racing days, and thankfully they got away from it.

The problem with having trials at nationals is, anyone serious about the trials and aiming to win a spot on the team will not enter any other events at nationals. On the flip side, because they are already there, you are going to have people entering trials that have no business being in them, and just draw out the trials process.

Nationals (whether they are club or elite, etc.) are great for what they are. Opportunities for athletes at all levels to race in a bunch of events and get a ton of racing experience. I remember going to nationals an entering three or four different events - adding in heats, reps, semis finals…you are walking away sometimes with 10+ opportunities to sit on the line and race, all at one regatta.

The years they moved trials to be a part of nationals, we would never enter all those other events because the goal was to win trials. So we lost race experience opportunities, and trials became this long drawn out process because we would end up having an additional 10+ crews entering trials that really had no business entering them and drawing out and changing the selection process format, when really only a handful of crews were there genuinely trying to earn a spot on a team.

Having trials and nationals in one event is simply a mistake.

[lt.wolf]

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t

Is the USA still the only country with categories outside of age brackets, intermediate , senior and Elite ?

[fullmetal]

If you're good enough to have a shot at winning trials, "additional race experience" doesn't mean a whit. No need for pot hunting.

There will always be entries in events who people think have no business racing. That's trials, that's the very definition of a selection process that selects the fastest from the rest. Gatekeeping is bad, and USRowing has financial scars from lawsuits to that effect. USRowing would love to not have to deal with "riff raff" entering a trials event, but they allow it because it's the better overall decision.

[lt.wolf]

Anyone in contention at trials will not be pot hunting, trust me.

A time trial will sort people out quickly

If you make the finals at trials and it can ruin your fall plans, tweak your goals. Stay hungry and go after the next level.

[Mandolorian]

First off, Wolf is right - "Anyone in contention at trials will not be pot hunting"

And as someone who had my own fair share of success in this sport, all the years I was on the team, the biggest issue we Americans always faced when we got to Worlds or Olympics was a lack of "racing experience."

Europeans are doing world cups several times during the summer. What do Americans do? Nothing. Not everyone can afford to go to the world cups. And the last thing I or any of us ever wanted was to have my only real race of the year be Worlds - it didn't matter how much experience I had.

So the next best thing was lining up with other national teamers and racing in a bunch of the elite events at nationals. Regardless of the crews they were in or training for, scullers would race against each other in doubles and singles and enter sweep events (since most rowed sweep in college). Sweep rowers broke up into pairs, or fours, and of course there was always the Hwts and Lwts racing against each other. I remember one year I was in eight camp, the final of the elite 8 at nationals had two Hwt men's camp eights, two Lwt men's camp eights and a Penn AC eight. No idea who the 6th crew was, but those 5 crews had a great race. Sure the top Hwt 8 walked away in the end, but they learned how to deal with crews (the lwt 8s) being faster off the line and having to work through another fast crew. Besides that, the Lwts and the 2nd Hwt 8 and the Penn AC 8 got a ton out of it. It was great.

Saying "additional race experience doesn't mean a whit." is one of the biggest reasons why the US doesn't perform consistently well on the international stage. If we want to win more across the board at the Worlds or Olympics we have to become better racers, not simply train more or get faster ergs (we still need those just to be clear). You can't learn in practice what you learn on race day.

[Mango]

First off, Wolf is right - "Anyone in contention at trials will not be pot hunting"

And as someone who had my own fair share of success in this sport, all the years I was on the team, the biggest issue we Americans always faced when we got to Worlds or Olympics was a lack of "racing experience."

Europeans are doing world cups several times during the summer. What do Americans do? Nothing. Not everyone can afford to go to the world cups. And the last thing I or any of us ever wanted was to have my only real race of the year be Worlds - it didn't matter how much experience I had.

So the next best thing was lining up with other national teamers and racing in a bunch of the elite events at nationals. Regardless of the crews they were in or training for, scullers would race against each other in doubles and singles and enter sweep events (since most rowed sweep in college). Sweep rowers broke up into pairs, or fours, and of course there was always the Hwts and Lwts racing against each other. I remember one year I was in eight camp, the final of the elite 8 at nationals had two Hwt men's camp eights, two Lwt men's camp eights and a Penn AC eight. No idea who the 6th crew was, but those 5 crews had a great race. Sure the top Hwt 8 walked away in the end, but they learned how to deal with crews (the lwt 8s) being faster off the line and having to work through another fast crew. Besides that, the Lwts and the 2nd Hwt 8 and the Penn AC 8 got a ton out of it. It was great.

Saying "additional race experience doesn't mean a whit." is one of the biggest reasons why the US doesn't perform consistently well on the international stage. If we want to win more across the board at the Worlds or Olympics we have to become better racers, not simply train more or get faster ergs (we still need those just to be clear). You can't learn in practice what you learn on race day.

I agree with a ton of this. Especially the idea that the US team doesn’t race enough. A lot of competing but not much opportunity to race. I really like what NZ does and let’s their men and women go back and fly the flag of their clubs for a weekend.

I think there is a differentiation that needs to be made between experience and good experience. And by good experience I mean a reasonable result. Crews that go over to worlds and world cups that are 20 seconds off GMS are missing way more than 2-3 world cups a year. They’re losing because they’re just not good enough, and the low hanging fruit is “but we don’t race at world cups”. Showing up and being “in” the regatta provides the experience to get you on the right side of a tight semi, or bottom of the A final to pushing for the medals year to year. 6th in the C-Final? Meh. Race experience is very low on the list of needs for improvement.

[fullmetal]

If you want to sharpen your edge, I'm not sure how club nationals events are going to get you that race experience, esp if you're banking on other athletes on your level to show up and test you. World Cup race experience? Sure, absolutely. Club nationals racing experience? I mean...yeah, if other guys show up and also enter the same events you enter. Is WCup racing that close to Club Natls racing? You'll forgive me if my initial inclination was to say no.

What's your alternative then? Do we just host all trials in the spring and force camp boats to be set by then? Natls once again becomes a "maybe" event for the elite rowers training for intl events-- you can get your race experience in there. I'm actually a proponent of earlier team naming; I'm not sure any other major NGB names their teams as late as the USA does.

[Mandolorian]

Mango - To be clear, I am not saying that racing experience alone will make up for someone who is 20 or more seconds off of the pace. I am talking about the top 8-10 athletes who need to get more experience racing. More experience with someone telling them, this is when you have to be on the starting line, someone different than their coach calling the start, racing on a different course, sleeping in a hotel room, the butterflies that come with racing for a medal, getting used to all of the small details that make you a little less "comfortable' on race day that you don't deal with lining up in practice on a Wednesday morning against the people you practice with every day.

And to answer full metal - again - this was the way it was back in the 80's and 90's - when there were separate elite and club nationals. The top Canadians came to elite nationals, we even had crews from Mexico coming, as well as all of the top athletes from the US camps and clubs. It was legitimate racing experience in North America for the top athletes. It was as close to WCup racing experience here on our continent as you could get. As soon as the elite and club nationals were brought together, it really watered down the field and elite athletes didn't want to have to show up on Tuesday (when finals were on Sunday), to start racing in heats in events where there were people 30+ seconds behind them.

The timing of elite nationals is also important. It needs to be driven to some degree by when trials are. Again, the top athletes are training to be ready for trials. Having a regatta a week or two before trials is not going to be anything those athletes will do. It has to be at least a month or so prior to trials so it doesn't disrupt the training for trials.

[rowing]

What watered things down for USA summer racing was the evolution of Nations Cup into a formal U23 World Championship.....with a whole new set of disembodied selection camps in the USA that siphoned athletes away from the clubs that had once been the core summer development opportunity for rowers during and after college.

Change my mind.