Core work and back injuries

[1xsculler]

Now that my lower back and shoulders are pretty well healed I'm getting back into my surfski in an attempt to tighten up my core and for general cross training.

[smiles]

Smiles -- I hope you check out Stuart McGill's work on core strength: http://www.backfitpro.com There are a number of good youtube vids of the exercises he recommends and suggests you avoid. I think he would argue that you need to do core work that does not involve flexing the lumbar spine, even if you are working the entire range of core muscles. Also, rather than trying to isolate individual core muscles, it may be better to do exercises that engage the entire core: nipples to knees.

Apologies if my phrasing or terminology gave the wrong impression...
but I'm pretty sure??? we're actually both on the same page since my primary take home points were focus on developing the antagonistic muscles moreso than primary & to develop whole entire core.

Certainly not a medical expert in any way shape or form & simply posting regarding personal experience....
but that being said, feel relatively confident in my suggestions being actually the 1 & ONLY lightweight woman of my generation that I'm aware of to not only row lightweight in college, but also last 3 quadrenniums at the Elite level without a single rib, back or intercostal injury.
I feel very, very lucky, but also feel it was a secondary result of very disciplined eating habits & regular core training.
As for these days....
haven't done anything regularly or significant in WELL over a year...
but I actually have photographic evidence as recent as this past Jan that apparently I must have been doing something right over the years???
Not going to post here, since being one of the only regular female posters, I prefer to have my brains rather than the bod do the talking on this site, but you can trust that my word is good.

As for back extensions being bad...
I just can't jump on that bandwagon when yoga positions such as cobra & updog (not to mention 1 of many's favorite "positions" in alternative forms of cross training & exercise) seem to relieve so much tension from the lower back & IMHO help strengthen it quite nicely.

[Steven M-M]

Smiles, I (I think, we all) respect your brains and athletic accomplishments and thanks for staying with this too-many-guys conversation. I agree that foreword and back bends in yoga etc. are important, especially if not overdone. My only observation is that much of what we thought about core strength and exercises has undergone some re-eval in the last ~5 years, with Stuart McGill's work leading the way. Just something to think about. I will say I now cringe when I go to the gym and see undergrads doing lots of lumbar-flexing crunches and back extensions and wonder what their disks will be like as they age.

[smiles]

I agree with not curving the back.
While I did use the word "crunches"...
in hindsight, majority of the exercises I have found most beneficial over the years still involved a relatively straight spine with the pivot point being in the sacral rather than lumbar region such as reverse abs (lifting your legs perpendicular), pilates or sculling sit-ups, or micro-crunches where there's almost no curve in the back.
Agree that back extensions as a fluid exercise rathet than a stretch & full blown sit-ups are both harmful & simply a pure waste of time & energy placing a lot of extra stress on the body with extra movement that provides no benefit whatsoever.
(haha, funny how one could easily make an analogy of unneccessary inneffective extra body movement/back flexion in core exercises to the same bad habits of bending, dolphin diving & over reaching in the rowing stroke.)

[RICox]

Another thing that often is neglected (and will lead to lower back injuries) is an imbalance between the pushing and pulling exercises. We think that squats/deadlifts are so crucial for strength in rowing, but without a 2:1 ratio of pulls to pushes, we'll develop a pretty severe problem with our antagonist muscles. For every push exercise, have two pulls. I typically do a set of RDLs for every set of squats/deadlifts, plus a set of band good mornings or hamstring curls (one leg RDL, bar good mornings are good too).

That difference between the force your quadriceps can produce and the force your hamstrings/glutes can support is felt directly in your back. If you can't support a strong impulse from your drive, you will have issues in the lower back as it compensates for what the antagonists in your legs/hips can't handle.

My favorite exercises for "core" work are definitely planks. Front/side/reverse. Then doing 1-leg leg lifts with the reverse plank, forcing the hips up high. You strengthen the core, lower back, hips and hamstrings in one blow.

The 1-leg RDLs are great too - good to throw in some unilateral work alongside our bilateral sport.

Excellent point on the pull vs push exercises. In the past my crews have spent a good amount of time on RDLs, good mornings, and power cleans. Also some overhead squat work. Seems that too many people probably underestimate the value and importance of this.

I was in complete agreement until we got to the planks. In rowing we're always engaging the core in a dynamic environment, almost never static like you have with planks. For that reason I've always leaned towards dynamic/ballistic core work, lots of gymnastic type movements that force you to brace while under load, very similar to what has to happen during the stroke. Hollow rocks, toes to bar, knees to elbow, dragon flags, ball slams.

Thoughts on kettlebell swings?

[bloomp]

I'm not dismissing more dynamic core movements, but look at the physiology of our core muscles. Since they are more "postural" than anything else, they're 90%+ Type I fibers. That mean's they a) won't hypertrophy as much as other muscle groups and b) can't produce rapid force in the means of your quadriceps etc. Being mostly Type I is good - that allows us to support ourselves for prolonged periods of time without tiring or burning through huge amounts of energy stores.

The static core work (planks) is good because we need that bracing support. For much of the drive, our back needs to be in a forward position locked in place, able to transfer huge amounts of force from the footplate to the oar handle. If we don't have the supporting musculature well strengthened (including the hamstrings and glutes), we'll predispose ourselves to injury.

The biggest problem with a lot of dynamic work is that your athletes want to push themselves. They'll do things that aren't smart or aren't correct, and suffer injury because of it. Getting in those extra 10 crunches/bicylces/etc to really push the core circuit might be tempting, but the decline in form and the changes in the angle of your hips from fatigue in your core muscles. That will lead to lower back injury in and of itself. The most common cause of injury with resistance training isn't heavy weights - it's endurance weights where you deal with fatigue and form falling apart.

RE: Kettlebells. Look at the number of lawsuits vs. crossfit (the folks that made them popular). They really don't do much for rowers, especially because you aren't moving a weight that's heavy enough to require activation of your highest threshold type II motor units. Good way to injure folks that aren't well versed in strength training. Stick to power cleans, hang cleans or snatches. Hell even weighted jump squats. Something that relates to a rowing motion and you can increase the resistance to a point you can only do 1-2 with good form. And most importantly, teach those lifts well. Start with just RDL/Deadlifts, then move to a power shrug, then a jump shrug. Train the front squat too.

[Scott @ Noble Hardware]

bloomp, can you elaborate a little on the various types of planks? Perhaps share a link with pictures of good form.

How often would you do these exercises, and in what kind of sets?

[smiles]

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/abdo ... /plank.htm

Here's a few plank photos too.
Just do a google search & you can find pretty much all the info you need.

[caustic]

I knew it.....sooner or later, planking was going to come to RI.

[black night]

RE: Kettlebells. Look at the number of lawsuits vs. crossfit (the folks that made them popular). They really don't do much for rowers, especially because you aren't moving a weight that's heavy enough to require activation of your highest threshold type II motor units. Good way to injure folks that aren't well versed in strength training. Stick to power cleans, hang cleans or snatches. Hell even weighted jump squats. Something that relates to a rowing motion and you can increase the resistance to a point you can only do 1-2 with good form. And most importantly, teach those lifts well. Start with just RDL/Deadlifts, then move to a power shrug, then a jump shrug. Train the front squat too.

Holy $h!t, what a mess. Kettlebells are just pieces of metal. You can do anything with them that you can do with a dumbbell.

And swings are a great way to learn the hinge pattern (key to rowing economy).

Heavy RDL singles/doubles, weighted jump squats, and hang snatches are SO MUCH MORE DANGEROUS than KB swings.

Furthermore, what the fcuk is a power/jump shrug and why would anyone ever do one/several?

Front Squats? Because rowers have such overdeveloped posterior chains (NOPE).

I don't mean to flame you personally, but there is a major lack of strength and conditioning knowledge on these boards, and it's not very responsible of you to spout this garbage.

Strength (and injury prevention) is simple, folks. Squat, deadlift, press overhead and on the bench, and learn your way around a clean or two. That's it. If you are planning more than 4-5 exercises in a session, that's too many. If you're lifting more than 15-20% of training time, that's too much. Use Prilepin's chart. Put weight on the bar. Eat.

Strength training is structurally useful for rowers. Use it to build a body tough and coordinated enough to handle the miles required at your competitive level and body weight.

Here are some goals from GB Rowing: http://goo.gl/4Ui3f

Back squat is the reference value. 150+% of bodyweight (180+% for heavy men) will have most rowers sorted and largely bulletproof if they hit the above ratios and have a 150+% BW back squat.

That was inflammatory, but this thread's been driving me nuts.

[bloomp]

Are you kidding me?

You can't teach someone a power clean by just showing them a good power clean and having them do it. That's the god damn point of a power shrug or jump shrug, to practice the motions. Same thing with a front squat - you can't "catch" a clean properly without getting the elbows through, and getting down into the hole. Exactly why a proper front squat can help. When was the last time you worked with the head strength coach at a D1 school? That's how you teach olympic lifts. Give me a break.

Where did I say to use heavy RDLs? I in fact railed against that because your lower back physically can't support such weight. RDLs are important to develop the pulling musculature of the lower body, so of course they should be included in a good strength training program.

If you have access to kettlebells and want to teach people to use them, go for it. I don't have access to them, and frankly nobody at my school's S&C program use them.

I don't know where you get off telling people just to "learn your way around a clean or two" but THAT is how you injure people. I do agree that 4-5 exercises and total training time of 15-20% is completely appropriate.

[suahoi]

Thank you, black night. Only issue, personally, is that I'm not wild about traditional squats in rowers. Only because many rowers tend to have long femurs, making it pretty difficult to achieve full depth without either driving the knees well past the toes, or going into excessive hip flexion. Instead, I'm a huge fan of split squats, with a real emphasis on maintaining a neutral position of the front ankle, to really work the hip extensors more than the quads.

Speaking of which, bloomp, while I certainly agree that you need to balance pushing with pulling, if you really feel you need to do RDLs or good mornings to work the hamstrings/glutes, in order to balance the quad work from squats/DL's, you're doing something very wrong. Squats and DLs inherently incorporate both "pushing" (knee extension) and "pulling" (hip extension).

[bloomp]

Speaking of which, bloomp, while I certainly agree that you need to balance pushing with pulling, if you really feel you need to do RDLs or good mornings to work the hamstrings/glutes, in order to balance the quad work from squats/DL's, you're doing something very wrong. Squats and DLs inherently incorporate both "pushing" (knee extension) and "pulling" (hip extension).

If only that were the case. That still neglects knee flexion, which you don't get from the squat/DL motion. You are not doing something wrong at all if you need to work in RDLs/good mornings.

The muscles predominantly recruited for a squat or deadlift are the quadriceps. If you only do lower body push motions (which is what the squat and DL are classified as), you will not have a balance in the strength of the muscle groups. Imbalance in strength = imbalances in force production during maximal exercise = injury. You are right, you get some training benefit in the "pulling" muscles from those lifts, but it's certainly not enough.

[bloomp]

The ideology of KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) is incredibly applicable to rowing. 4-5 lifts per session, no more than 20% of your total time training.

But that does not mean you can jump right into an advanced lift like a power clean or hang clean. It takes longer to learn a difficult exercise, and time should be spent doing exercises that help you with the technique for a clean.

In the course of a semester, I have seen and worked with women that have never lifted weights in their life and they can learn to do a hang clean and hang snatch. They have to in order to pass a class a kinesiology here. They learn those exercises not because they emulate the full movement, but because they practice the parts of it. Starting with the deadlift and RDL, then working on the jumping and shrugging motion, and doing front squats. These exercises are not dangerous unless you've not built up to it properly.

[smiles]

While this won't help core strength...
if you just want to shape up for beach/bikini season....