Erg before Lift? Lift before Erg?

[RiggerJigger]

I was wondering if it was better to lift before rowing or erging, or lift afterwards. Or does it even make a difference? On a similar note, I was also wondering if, when practicing twice or more in one day, if it was better to complete a steady state workout before or after one with higher intensity?

[Almostflipped]

With regards to the lifting/erging, I think erging will have a bigger negative impact on your lifting session than the other way around. I would be very much against any heavy lifting after a longer or taxing erg workout as I feel the possibility of a minor fatigue induced technical error in lifting is more likely to injure you than a minor technical error while erging. Saw a study a while back also on doing your primary aerobic activity after lifting as it helped with neuromuscular adaptations. Don't remember where I saw it (years ago). Might want to look that sort of thing up and make some decisions based on the results and a little self experimentation.

With regards to the intervals/SS thing, I don't know. I've seen both. Beyond my ability to know what's better. I'd probably look more at what you did the day before and are doing the day after to maximize recovery.

[Long'n Strong]

With regards to the intervals/SS thing, I don't know. I've seen both. Beyond my ability to know what's better. I'd probably look more at what you did the day before and are doing the day after to maximize recovery.

I think it becomes obvious when you determine what the primary objective is for the day and which of the two workouts is the more "important."

Agree totally with your comments about the dangers associated with lifting and erging (or rowing). Again, depends on the objective. If it is to gain strength, then don't to compromise that workout by doing another right before.

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

Simple facts are that either way around you need to space the sessions.

There are disadvantages both ways around but fundementally you should not get off an erg and then lift weights without a significant gap, maybe 90min to 2 hours. I know people don't. You should have fueled your body in between as well.

Weights circuits or heavy weights (lets not debate) both produce a lot of lactic acid and if doing SS you would effectively be doing the work with much more lacticacid in the system after weights than before.

If I was compelled to do sessions close together I would always do weights after ergo. Then i would arrange the program so that the ergo was only ever SS with limted fatigue. I would not do AT or other harder pieces and then weights.

[midweight]

when practicing twice or more in one day, if it was better to complete a steady state workout before or after one with higher intensity?

I've always thought that later in the day was somewhat better for the higher intensity workouts, since body temps tend to be higher and hormonal profiles tend to be more conducive then - overall readiness for really hard work is improved compared to early.

[bkdowney1991]

Twice a week through the winter we lift and then erg, which can be mighty uncomfortable. Usually we do a sequence of deadlifts and front squats paired with more ballistic exercises (kettle bell swings and medicine ball throws), and then a 30 minute circuit designed to strengthen our core muscles. The erg is 3-4x1k at race pace the first day, and then 12 x 10 secs peak power the second day. Obviously the erg session on our second gym afternoon is designed to be more of a continuation of the weight circuit itself. The 1k's are extremely tough and most people start with an incredibly dead feeling in their legs. I usually can only hold my split for the first 2 pieces before my target switches to holding pace for as long as possible. The sessions were designed by the Canadian Sport Center Pacific people, the same people that have been designing the strength and weight program for the Canadian Men's team since at least 2005.

Take from that what you will

[bloomp]

If you intend to lift heavy (whether for power, force or hypertrophy), you should always lift before doing aerobic work. In order to quickly recruit your type II fibers that will be moving the large weight, you have to work through your type I fibers first. If your type I fibers are already exhausted, it will take too long to work through them and you'll struggle to both move the weight or even recruit all type II fibers.

Not only that, but with erging you will burn both fats and carbohydrates. Lifting utilizes mostly carbohydrates and exhausting stores of muscle glycogen before lifting will severely inhibit your ability to perform.

So in short, since you will be utilizing mostly type I fibers to erg and you will have plenty of fatty acids left over to burn, you'll have the greatest success coupling an erg session to the end of a lift.

[black night]

This is purely anecdotal, but the only times I lift are after rowing. Being quite busy outside of training, I can only do 1 (albeit long) trip to the gym/day. I feel that if you program lifting after extensive endurance training (with proper control on intensity), then the risk of injury is quite low (even doing 3 x 5, 5 x 5, etc.) and that it actually provides a more beneficial overall training stimulus since blood lactate is minimized over the course of the session at the same time that you get both a significant amount of endurance work and an opportunity to improve motor unit recruitment.

Putting them together gives a product greater than the sum of its parts. I don't have any science on hand to back this up, however, but I can certainly say that it is the case for me.

Re: others' recommendations, think of it this way: it's common to see a UT2 session with some short AN pieces afterward. I've never actually seen them programmed the other way around.

I would not ever program UT1/AT/TR in the same session as AN or weights (endurance or strength). Too much un/counter-productive lactate buildup.

My $ 0.02

[bloomp]

By fatiguing your muscles before the lift, you'll never achieve full motor unit recruitment. Either you can't overcome the activation threshold of your slow twitch fibers or you won't be able to load your lift with enough weight to require all (or a majority of) your motor units. Thus, you'll get stuck training your slow twitch fibers and you won't develop top end force or power.

[LiquidMercury]

Lift before erg.

1. This will allow you to re-pattern your motor units to effectively use the power you are developing in your lift for rowing. I recommend doing a 20 minute swing row after every lift for this reason to my clients.
2. Heavy lifting - see max effort method - is not going to build excess lactic acid up that would need to be cleared prior to a row.
3. In general try to lift before UT2 or UT1 sessions as the lift will impair your ability to provide maximum power output for AT/AN pieces.

[lt.wolf]

LIft before erg - actually lift , take a small break then row / erg

[LiquidMercury]

LIft before erg - actually lift , take a small break then row / erg

More ideal for sure. Ideal would be 4-8 hours rest between the sessions.

[caustic]

Like others have said, it depends on what kind of lifting, and what kind of erging. Aerobic workouts often need less recovery time, since you're not really pusing the muscles to their limit, but instead working your circulatory system. Fewer toxins build up, and your metabolism returns to baseline relatively quickly post workout.

Workouts geared towards explosiveness, power, threshold, or pure anaerobic work will require more recovery time, either because (in the case of lifting) you need time for your muscles to repair, or (for the case of anaerobic workouts) you need time for your body to cleanse your system of the toxins built up, and also for your metabolic rate to return to baseline.

If you're doing lifting geared towards power and strength, and not endurance or hypertrophy, you really should have about 12-24 hours of full rest before another workout, depending on the intensity of your 2nd workout. If it's a LSS aerobic workout where you're at 65% of max HR or lower, 12 hours, if you're doing sprintervals or speedwork, might want to wait until the next morning.