Ursula & Abby lw2x for USA

[2CiiX21]

Stewie,

You are clearly very experienced and knowledgeable in the sport. Yet, you continue to make statements that imply you have direct information regarding the way in which this 2x approached the first World Cup, specifics of how their training is structured, how hard they are pushing and when, etc. Unless I'm mistaken, these are all blind assumptions. If the GB women had won the first World Cup by the same margin as the USA, you would label the event totally locked down with GB poised to walk away with it.

I understand your perceptions of rowing in the USA, and many of them are very well-founded. But you cannot deny that you have no ACTUAL idea where these women are in their training cycle, how they are preparing for Worlds, why the others are joining them and their coach's system, etc. Your bias (again, some well-founded) comes off as outrageously arrogant, despite your total lack inside information critical to proving the points you are trying to make.

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

Back to front actually. Although I do have some info on how Ursula prepared during the Spring the point is not knowing how the USA boat prepared but how the USA boat has no idea how the competition was or was not prepared.

What we do know is this.

The first World Cup invariably is poorly attended and results often do not reflect World Champs results.

Example, GB winning World Cups last year and Bronzing in the World Champs. GB mens eight winning in Bled with a sub and Bronzing by Lucerne. etc.etc.

The World Champs are in November, so this will have further influenced how crews preprepared for the World Cup in a unique year. How seriously they took it and in the case of lightweights if they were near weight for instance or staying higher and doing more extremem short term loss for the WC. (affecting performance).

Its the very fact that there is so much you don't know about the race they did in Bled that should install some caution and just a tad more respect for their World Class opposition.

At the end of the day I am not even saying they couldn't walk away with two gold medals etc. But its about targets and risk assessment and I do not believe the risk reward is there for the crew to risk an Olympic event to win a non Olympic event. Effectively this is a gamble.

[whodoyouthinkiam]

I'd have to agree with Stewie.

Leading into an Olympic qualifying year, you'd surely want to prioritise Olympic boats. If it's at the expense of non-Olympic medals and development, so be it.

The racing at worlds will be of a sufficient level that doubling up is not a realistically good option.

Without being rude to Ursula and Abby, the other crew that has been doubling up visibly this year is the GB W2x/W4x combo. They may have been on the money in the 2x, but even when adding a better bow pair than the US LW2x will be able to finf for the LW4x (no disrepect, but Vernon's a world champ and oly silver medallist, and Rodford's not far behind) they haven't been able to be as consistent as they'd like.

The LW2x is a more evenly contested event - 3 different winners from 3 races, and no-one's been dominant enough that I'd say that it's worthwhile doubling. As far as I can see, even the GB 2x won't be doubling up at worlds. And they are a seriously consistent outfit!

It's not my decision to make, and good luck to them if they do double up, but I really can't see the point.

[Long'n Strong]

The point is to get Carlos positioned so that he gets to coach Ursula at the Olympics instead of having to hand her off to one of the "jobs for the boys" coaches in 2012.

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

The point is to get Carlos positioned so that he gets to coach Ursula at the Olympics instead of having to hand her off to one of the "jobs for the boys" coaches in 2012.

In which case he needs another Olympic class boat. Not the light4x

The ONLY way he will get this is by putting Ursula in a heavyweight boat and
immediately her medal chances disappear. Facts are she was crushed by
Karsten in the 2nd 1000 at Amsterdam, lets not kid ourselves there.

He will get the trip if they're defending World Champions LW2X and only
defending world champs. A bronze will be seen as an opportunity to improve the
boat with someone else or at least an excuse to give the trip to someone else

And if anyone is confused why L+S posted that thought, its because you cant take as
many coaches to the Olympics as you want. There is a 1-4 ratio of coaches-athletes IOC rule
Often trial winner small boats lose out to the Nat Team coaches and asst coaches, or those
in the "in crowd". The coach who took the LW2X to a week from trials in 08 lost his slot
and they were a potential medal chance at the time. The M1X coach took the boat for
the last couple of months. Prior to the event it can become a real case of musical chairs.

Example, say Charlie Butt has a pair that wins trials and Carlos/Ursula/AN Other win. There is
one remaining coaching slot for the 4 athletes? Charlie or Carlos? Olympic experienced coach
with amazing track record or Carlos? Would anyone doubt that Charlie could NOT coach a LW2X?
He could coach a one legged duck. So you see the point. As defending World Champions, the decision
would be harder.

So there is another reason why concentration on the LW2X is so important. Carlos NEEDS
a gold medal track record in the Olympic event or he risks not being on the team

[Slim]

I'm going to get my popcorn out and just watch this thread for the next few weeks.

[lt.wolf]

With all this talk of doubling up (tripling up) is this not a good thing for women’s lightweight rowing?

Hell, I am all for what she is doing if it brings attention to our sport.

I am all for it if it helps young women keep rowing after college.

I am all for it if it helps bring back another event for the lightweight women at Worlds, it could happen they brought back the lightweight men’s eight. We should not want to limit our sport we should want to grow it.

If Ursula can put lightweight women’s rowing up on her shoulders and run with it for one year who knows what can come of it. I sure hope after this year her events will be limited for 2012 and she does not get hurt. I will tell you this, if she goes for the triple (yes, I said triple) she will be all the talk come November. And that is a big step in lightweight women’s rowing.

Am I singing a different tune than a few months ago, possibly, it is a still wait and see thing. But like Slim, I am getting my popcorn out.

By the way we are putting questions together for Carlos and his Speed 5

[Long'n Strong]

I still don't really understand how the South African Rowing Association let such a prodigious talent get away.

[bloomp]

I still don't really understand how the South African Rowing Association let such a prodigious talent get away.

Has an African nation ever boated a fast (medal-stand) crew at worlds/olympics?

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

I still don't really understand how the South African Rowing Association let such a prodigious talent get away.

Has an African nation ever boated a fast (medal-stand) crew at worlds/olympics?

Yes.....South Africa won medals in M2- with Aplomb. Di Clemente and his partners, as well as a fast Women's 2- in 2000 as I remember.

http://www.worldrowing.com/index.php?pageid=164

Zimbabwe has lightweight women in the 90's.

South Africa just won the M2- at the U23 Worlds.

One would assume Ursula followed her American husband through whom she got her Citizenship?

[Estara]

OK, I've just gotta pipe up again after a few of the posts.

First:

Agreed. Rowers these days are far to namby pamby about doubling up. In the words of caustic, "SACK UP". The longest standing record in our sport is that set by John Kelly Sr. in 1920 - two Olympic Golds in one day. 30 minutes apart!

Bloomp, do you really seriously think the level of competition was the same in 1920 as it is today? That's just stupid.

Second:

Well, the fact that one athlete could win two spots already shows an existing lack of depth in the pre-development pool anyway. So, I'd be more worried why we have so few athletes of the caliber needed to do well in the elite world, - not that we have a few athletes who are head-and-shoulders better and can double up because no one else is near to them in ability and speed. Giving obviously inferior athletes - yes, GIVING - a spot on the team, instead of them EARNING it, defeats the entire purpose of competition! You give away chocolate bars, you don't give away prime spots for racing.

OK, as dontfallin did an EXCELLENT job of explaining, the other women who could fill those 2 slots aren't exactly 2nd rate rowers. I would say there is a group of at least 10 LW in the US right now who could rightfully EARN a spot on the national team without anyone saying they don't deserve it. You don't get "given" a spot as a lightweight woman on the US national team, especially this year! Mind you this is for a total of 7 spots. Which is fewer than are present in 1 BOAT in ANY of the other categories (H M&W and LM). I really don't think you understand the extent to which there is an element of luck (thinking stuff like injuries here) involved to be on the national team as a light woman in the US, it's not just about training your a$$ off and working hard. Also, as for 1 person managing to win 2 spots, there will always be those 1 or 2 really truely incredible athletes of which Ursula clearly is one and would be in ANY country in the world.

BUT...to publicly slander the REST of the US ltwts when for the FIRST time in several years
there is GOLD MEDAL ltwt4x speed (with or WITHOUT U&A in that boat) is COMPLETELY disrespectful!!!

I couldn't agree more with this statement. Lightweight women already get treated enough like 2nd class citizens in the US without people on this board putting down those who have worked their butts off to become the very best at it. Respect where respect is due please.

[smiles]

I'm going to get my popcorn out and just watch this thread for the next few weeks.

For a little extra flavor, I highly recommend a dash of Cayenne pepper & garlic powder.
Seasoned salt or Parmesan cheese or good for a savory kick to popcorn as well.
If you're in the mood for something different & sweet try sprinkling cinnamon or pumpkin pie spice.

Just thought I'd dole out a few suggestions to "spice things up" (pun intended)
since I have a feeling you might be going through a lot of popcorn.

[bloomp]

Estara,

I am not comparing them (nor the speed of the field) to modern crews. That would be foolish. But to say that crews at any Olympic games are not competitive with one another is ridiculous. In the 1920s, they were FAST. Had they trained today, they would possibly be just as fast. We also don't have a system that rewards being so competitive. Kelly probably benefited from his own booming business and the fact that rowing was legal to gamble on at the time.

It's all relative, always.

And Smiles, if you're looking for a true treat - put some chocolate syrup on your popcorn.

[lt.wolf]

Hey Slim - can you pass the salt?

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

careful or we will start charging you voyeurs!!